Death Adder & New Beggar Prince

[fantasyanime_guy]

Has anyone heard about the release of Beggar Prince for Genesis? (the game incorrectly known as Breath of Fire 3) Death Adder has been posting the news in big-name emulation websites. Then he made another post saying, "You people don't read. It's a cart-only release" Well, posting the news in emulation websites is misleading, especially when posting it at The Whirlpool.

This is such a turn-off. I've been keeping track of the Beggar Prince translation project and throughout its progress it was intended to be released as a patch. The news of it being released only as a cart comes to an uncomfortable surprise to me. When it comes to classic gaming I only use emulation (don't really have a choice, classics are expensive), so I'm going to have to forget about Beggar Prince.

[Nightcrawler]

Yup.. seen it.. been at whirlpool and vented a little steam...

http://donut.parodius.com/bbs/messages/39589.html

That guy seems like an asshat and insults the scene and what we stand for with comments as he made.

Someone should do a fan translation of it just to spite him.  Either that or somebody buy it and leak an ips patch out.

[Kitsune_Sniper]

It wouldn't matter either way, the game has tons of anti-emulator protection.

[byuu]

Some people tend to enjoy the challenge of cracking such games, just to spite the authors. Given Death Adder's current reputation, I wouldn't much doubt this happening.

From what I know, the game has a special memory mapper that isn't emulated yet, so even the Chinese ROM doesn't play right on emulators. But if someone spent 3-4 months reverse-engineering the ST-011 to play one single game ("Hayazashi 2 - Dan Morita Shogi (J)"), then it is inevitable that these issuse will be fixed in Beggar Prince eventually as well -- despite the lack of attention the Genesis seems to get.

As far as custom 680x0 code written by SuperFighter to keep the game from playing on emulators... yeah. That'll last all of 10 minutes in the right hands.

His best bet would be to use some custom hardware on the carts themselves. But even that never stopped NeoGeo/CPS2 games from getting dumped and emulated.

-- However, despite all that... the game already has 3 strikes against it: 1) It's obscure, 2) It's Chinese, 3) It's for the Genesis. None of those are a bad thing, but I'd seriously doubt many people will give a shit about this anyway to bother cracking it. So who knows, guess we'll find out.

[D--]

This is such a turn-off. I've been keeping track of the Beggar Prince translation project and throughout its progress it was intended to be released as a patch. The news of it being released only as a cart comes to an uncomfortable surprise to me.

You are an idiot.

I never once -- ever -- said there would be a patch. I always told you it was being commercially released. If you were too busy whacking off to screenshots I leaked (when I wasn't even allowed to show anyone anything) to pay attention to what was the entire premise of this project, that's your problem.

Death Adder's comments aside, this always was and always had been a commercial venture. Super Fighter Team is a company. Aside from releasing a few promotional things for free on its website, everything it does is through money and contracts. They hire and pay their programmers, artists and everyone else just like all companies do. This is not a matter of fan work suddenly demanding money (though ou've never had poblems with DeJap or RPGOne doing it) -- it was intended for sale since day one when Super Fighter Team obtained license from C&E Soft to produce and sell an English version.

I'm having a hard time imagining you becoming so infuriated at Atlus for translating and selling Growlanser or Natsume for translating and selling Lufia II, both cases where the English company purchased license to produce and sell an English game ...

As for emulation of the game, I'm not allowed to say very much about what's standing in the way. But yes, byuu was correct about at least some of its hardware being unemulated, among other problems inherent to people developing games without Sega's official manual. Even the original Chinese game cannot be completed on any emulators out today (and the authors seem pretty confused why) and plays extremely glitchy with menus triggering resets to the title screen, random crashes and similar issues.

It's a shame we didn't figure out the PC edition of the game yet (though I really only looked at it a few hours, I expected DA would just hire someone else for that one since the script can be recycled). I'd agree it would have been really cool to make that version available for download purchase. But since emulators can't even run the ROM it would be pointless to sell the Genesis version on anything but cartridge.

[fantasyanime_guy]

I love you too, D. But note that Sparkster (for those who don't know, he's also behind this project) and I used to talk a lot. I was there when he started the project and I knew of his troubles to get it off the ground. It -was- intended to be released as a patch, that I know for a fact.

[TechMaster]

Thanks D for the explaination. (better than what I could've done anyways)

Regarding Sparxster, he's no longer working on the game once Death Adder took over.  He is not a part of Death Adder's team who worked on the game.  Even if it is true that he had intentions for it to be a patch, he did not have the power to do so.

[D--]

I love you too, D. But note that Sparkster (for those who don't know, he's also behind this project) and I used to talk a lot. I was there when he started the project and I knew of his troubles to get it off the ground. It -was- intended to be released as a patch, that I know for a fact.

Since just because two people independently work on the same game they must be connected. I mean, obviously ChrisRPG had to respect what Quatch & Lord Pinto wanted done with Dragon Quest I&II since they worked on it for a month back in 1996 before dropping it. Alamone has a huge hand in Der Langrisser even though he's been gone for 6 years and never contributed anything whatsoever to our project. Hey, remember Seiken Densetsu 3? I bet Neill had to honor whatever [J3d!]'s original intent for it was since they worked on it totally independent of each other and years apart.

In case you are not catching the blaring sarcasm: Sparxter had absolutely nothing to do with a commercial game translation that was never at all under his control or that he was a part of.

Maybe I should go chase down Squaresoft for releasing Final Fantasy V commercially in English on PlayStation when clearly that wasn't at all how we intended for it to be released back when we did it in RPGe. That is the kind of logic you are using.

Wake up, because you're seriously wrong.

[byuu]

Amitrius, you just got... [size=24]SERVED![/size]

                     :P

[Neil]

Hey, remember Seiken Densetsu 3? I bet Neill had to honor whatever [J3d!]'s original intent for it was since they worked on it totally independent of each other and years apart.

Just to be an anal retentive jerk, I'll point out that some of J3d!'s work was given to Neill and although it didn't get used (if I recall correctly) it got J3d! a spot in the readme. So it wasn't -totally- independent of each other.


But point taken.

[Lucky Mallet]

I was the initiator of the project a while back, while work progressed too slowly, so therefore DeathAdder and the gang took over (after we revealed that the game belonged to C&E, he became interested.)

Since I have been a strong supporter of the SuperFighter team and this project (including DeathAdder, TechMaster, and D's work even) I will respond to some of the criticisms made here and at the board.

!) The game does not use a variable width font.
X) Wrong, the game does, in fact, use a VWF, so to
speak. If you try messing around with the original
chinese ROM and then take a look at the english text
from the screenshots, you would understand.

!) A translation by the community would probably
surpass this "professional" version.
X) Not so, a fan-translation could probably result in
something similar (with numerous glitches thrown in),
or at it's worst, a literal dry translation. The
script has indeed been emphasized and improved from
the original text. Some has been re-written to give
the game a more dramatic feel, but at the same time
keeping the essential feeling of the original
dialogue.

!) He is translating a mere ROM image, and is being
backed by the company.
X) Incorrect, to my understanding, he was given the source code to work from, in which he included TechMaster's translation, with the efforts of a few others (such as D)

!) This game is being released onto a cartridge for a
dead console, and no one is going to buy it!
X) Again, he didn't say this was merely about
profiting, it's more to whoever wants it. This is
geared towards diehard Genesis fans. The atari
community does the same, with the reality that they
will not be able to make hundreds, or thousands of
dollars off of it, but people buy them anyway. And in
music, people still produce vinyls because it gives
them 'a different sound'. it's the same with gaming
experience, it gives diehard classic gamers a
different feeling of gameplay when they are on the
real thing, but then again, that is diehard gamers. It
will not mean that the game will be impossible to
sell.

!) People are going to defeat the copy-protection, and
this game WILL be dumped soon after it's release
X) Maybe, but then again I can't disclose indepth information
regarding its anti-piracy method.

Any more questions/comments/critique are welcomed.

[Nightcrawler]

You are opening up a giant can of worms by jumping into this.  Affiliates and supporters of people that talk down the romhacking community such as 'Beggar Prince is being released by a company, not a group of self-appointed "elite" teenagers' are not welcome here. This is insulting and disrespectful to many of the people in the scene.  And so far, his official commercial translation is lacking in quality compared to many fan translations done by 'elite teenagers'.  Death Adder is no position to say such words.

While I advocate free speech here, I will not ban such discussion, but you will be met with hostility. Be forwarned.

!) The game does not use a variable width font.
X) Wrong, the game does, in fact, use a VWF, so to
speak. If you try messing around with the original
chinese ROM and then take a look at the english text
from the screenshots, you would understand.

No it doesn't.  It's quite clear by the screenshots it's using 8x16.  Each character is using a FIXED width of 8 pixels. I don't doubt  the original game used a larger font size.  The point is, it's not a VWF font.  It's 'just' an 8x16 hack.  You don't know what you're talking about. Show me evidence that what I just said is not true.

!) A translation by the community would probably
surpass this "professional" version.
X) Not so, a fan-translation could probably result in
something similar (with numerous glitches thrown in),
or at it's worst, a literal dry translation. The
script has indeed been emphasized and improved from
the original text. Some has been re-written to give
the game a more dramatic feel, but at the same time
keeping the essential feeling of the original
dialogue.

What are you talking about? Go play Tales of Phantasia, Dragon Quest V, Seiken Densetsu 3 or one of countless other top quality fan translations.  Where are your glitches? Where is your dry translation? You get a wide range of dry to overly fleshed out script in the fan translation scene.  The script translation quality is a matter of opinion.  However, the technical modifications to enhance quality is not.  A large number of fan translations are above and beyond what I see in Beggar Prince.  Beggar Prince is not even on par to some of the top fan translations.

!) He is translating a mere ROM image, and is being
backed by the company.
X) Incorrect, to my understanding, he was given the source code to work from, in which he included TechMaster's translation, with the efforts of a few others (such as D)

That makes me even less impressed.  I would expect much more from this translation with the source code provided.  That point isn't helping your arguement.

!) This game is being released onto a cartridge for a
dead console, and no one is going to buy it!
X) Again, he didn't say this was merely about
profiting, it's more to whoever wants it. This is
geared towards diehard Genesis fans. The atari
community does the same, with the reality that they
will not be able to make hundreds, or thousands of
dollars off of it, but people buy them anyway. And in
music, people still produce vinyls because it gives
them 'a different sound'. it's the same with gaming
experience, it gives diehard classic gamers a
different feeling of gameplay when they are on the
real thing, but then again, that is diehard gamers. It
will not mean that the game will be impossible to
sell.

Well he sure kicked himself in the ass with things he said on the whirlpool.  Pissed alot of people off.  They won't be buying his game. You can't attack the community you're advertising in.  Poor buisness practice.  He is just as immature as the 'elite teenagers' he despises.

[Lucky Mallet]

If you are not willing to purchase the game, then fine. I am not forcing you to do so, neither is C&E, and it's affiliates.
The game will be released, anyway -- although the cartridge release is dedicated to a more inclined, devoted audience, and I doubt they will have any problems with C&E's efforts. This war of flames over something silly, such as a minor font problem is in vain.

Although I respect the ROM Hacking scene (to some extent), C&E and the SuperFighter.com Team are not going to tolerate piracy in the least. Imagine the lawsuits and legal battles that could ensue -- In turn, more money for C&E, Inc./SuperFighter.com if the cases are won (which does not seem to be difficult, or impossible).

I did not mean to insult anyone personally, I was merely trying to say that I do not think this argument is worthwhile. Get on with life and move on; worse things have been said, it doesn't mean they are all true, right? I do not think all of the ROM Hackers are 'elite kids' either.

Indeed, it was a foolish statement on DeathAdder's end but that does not mean the majority of C&E and SuperFighter.com disdain the ROM Hacking scene as a whole, only when others get into their buissiness. I think to try and destroy everything for them because of the mistake of a single person is foolish. DeathAdder is only one of many people at work on the game, and in fact, as I have spoken to others associated with the project, they do not think alike in regards to the ROM Hackers as 'elite children' comment. Just ask TechMaster (translator), in addition to the proof-readers of the script.

[Neil]

Imagine the lawsuits and legal battles that could ensue -- In turn, more money for C&E, Inc./SuperFighter.com if the cases are won (which does not seem to be difficult, or impossible).

bwahahahahahah


Ask nintendo how much money they got shutting down internet pirates. And most of that was for systems that were still alive (GBC anyone?). At best all you can hope for through legal action is shutting down websites. But if you want to have a law and order dream and think that there's gold in them thar hills, more power to you.

That's some legal papers I'd love to read. "Uh, your honour, our clients would like 1.5 million in dammages from this 25 year old for stealing the copyrighted code of a game which was written for a system that is no longer manufactured and whose install base is somewhere between 3000 and 5000 depending on wether you count the consoles which are gathering mold in basements."

[Nightcrawler]

If you are not willing to purchase the game, then fine. I am not forcing you to do so, neither is C&E, and it's affiliates.
The game will be released, anyway -- although the cartridge release is dedicated to a more inclined, devoted audience, and I doubt they will have any problems with C&E's efforts. This war of flames over something silly, such as a minor font problem is in vain.

Although I respect the ROM Hacking scene (to some extent), C&E and the SuperFighter.com Team are not going to tolerate piracy in the least. Imagine the lawsuits and legal battles that could ensue -- In turn, more money for C&E, Inc./SuperFighter.com if the cases are won (which does not seem to be difficult, or impossible).

I did not mean to insult anyone personally, I was merely trying to say that I do not think this argument is worthwhile. Get on with life and move on; worse things have been said, it doesn't mean they are all true, right? I do not think all of the ROM Hackers are 'elite kids' either.

Indeed, it was a foolish statement on DeathAdder's end but that does not mean the majority of C&E and SuperFighter.com disdain the ROM Hacking scene as a whole, only when others get into their buissiness. I think to try and destroy everything for them because of the mistake of a single person is foolish. DeathAdder is only one of many people at work on the game, and in fact, as I have spoken to others associated with the project, they do not think alike in regards to the ROM Hackers as 'elite children' comment. Just ask TechMaster (translator), in addition to the proof-readers of the script.

Nobody said they should tolerate piracy.  I mentioned nothing of it.  Who's argueing? I was done arguing until you came on and threw in your two cents.  You started it back up again defending Death Adder and Co.  And now I feel like shooting down all your points because you're coming onto my message board, home turf to an 'elite teenager' hacker. And you were wrong about the VWF.  The pictures are evidence of an 8 pixel FIXED width font.  You had no comment, so you must concur that I was right and you were wrong. There is no argument over a silly font because the facts and evidence speak for themselves.

The font problem was just one example I pointed out.  Those screenshots don't give me too much to judge by, but I can already point out a handful of shortcomings that other fan translations excel and surpass this translation in.  My point was it's not even on the same level as some of the other fan translations and Death Adder needs to get knocked of his high horse.  I am dissapointed in Techmaster's involvement with such a disrespectful human being.  And to top it all off, he's a braggart.

Nobody got into Death Adder's or Superfighter's 'business.'  He just rammed in there shooting of his mouth with disrespectful, high horse comments like a moron.  Then that got people into his/their business.

I am not trying to destroy anyone.  I am just showing my dissaproval and reasons why I dissaprove. I don't have to support Death Adder, his company, his projects, or anyone affliated with him.. especially on my own message board.

So, if you still have anything with any merit to defend him with, please do.

Death Adder needs to issue a public apology for being an asshat before I will withdraw my unsupportive attitude toward him.  He's on too high a horse, so I don't think we're going to see that.